Landings
Right - that's the ONLY correct answer to this classic argument...and personal preference can vary per person per airplane! I had a Cessna 170 and most always 3-pointed it - crosswind or calm. I have a Cessna 180 now and most always wheel-land it - crosswind or calm. However, I 3-point the 180 if I have anyone in the back seat - crosswind or calm. My dad has a 195 and ALWAYS 3 points it...so do I. -
Jeff Marken Apr 08, 05
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Jeff, What is your preference on the use of flaps with the crosswind landings? How about your dad in his 195? -
Roger Brown Apr 10, 05
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ALL of you forgot to include THROTTLE, our 4th dimension. My instructors in 1968/69 were WW2 veterans and we practised both 3-point landings and wheelies, both with power-on and power off. For an extreme short landing, we used power in a stabilized approach, hang it on the prop in high-lift/high-drag configuration, until cutting power and pulling the stick immediately before touchdown, in a 3-point or at least tail-low attitude, and let the airplane settle. In a power-off-approach, a short landing can be achieved by slowing down until you have a high sink rate, however, nose-up, but shortly before touching the ground you have to add power and push the stick forward, in this sequence, to adjust the sink rate. At that time, (60ies) basic instruction was taildragger-only such as PA 18 and Cessna 170. Nice to remember, no student had the feeling that a taildragger was more difficult to handle than nosewheelers that we later were allowed to graduate in the flying club Luebeck, Germany. -
Thomas Godehus Dec 12, 04
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Thomas, thanks for the idea. Today I practiced power on/off stalls. Tomorrow - power on/off landings. Roger -
Roger Brown Feb 12, 05
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Charlie, It seems the chance for screwing it up increases even more if a camera is pulled out. Astromonical if it's a video camera! Do you two or three point the 180? Roger -
Roger Brown Feb 12, 05
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Always three pointers and almost always with full flaps .
I used to occasionally wheel the Stinson on for amusement and to satisfy myself I could do it , but so far ( 100 hours ) I've stuck to three pointers on the 180 and dont want to rock the boat . -
Charlie Tatham Feb 23, 05
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Charlie, Same with me, three point and full flaps (Citabria). I like to be as slow as possible when I touch the ground. My friend (170 and Super Cub) is 98.2% (his number) wheel landings. I guess it's personal preference (possibly the plane's preference) unless someone proves otherwise. Roger -
Roger Brown Feb 28, 05
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Your reference to WW2 veterans caught my eye because my instructor back in 1966 ( !!! ) was a veteran as well and I soloed in an Aeronca Champ with 65 thundering horses up front - it was three pointers for everything so no decisions needed to be made about what technique was better for what situation .
Through the years it's been that way for a succession of tail draggers including the current machine , a Cessna 180 . Interestingly , I find it noticeably easier to handle than the Stinson 108 - 1 which preceded it . For some reason the take- offs were frequently interesting with occasional yawing about . The 180 is almost as if on rails .
The key to consistency seems to be continuous practice but that guarantees nothing . The chances for screwing it up are proportional to the cube of the number of people watching . -
Charlie Tatham Jan 28, 05
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Seems like everything has already been said, But I have found when I have under 500 feet, and a gross wt 180, (or even my 245hp L5 stinson) it is kind of a full stall wheel landing. the mainwheels better hit first as the flaps dump, then PLANT the tailwheel, or you will be trying out your new $7500 McCauley brushcutter. -
Jon Anderson Jul 19, 05
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Well, the flaps in a 195 are all but useless, so there's really nothing to say with it. I always use full flaps in my 180, regardless of the wind or type of landing I am going to make. They don't seem to make it any better or worse in a crosswind, so I go for the slower touchdown speed and better nose-down attitude for touchdown if wheel-landing it, and a 180 climbs good even with full flaps down, so go-arounds aren't an issue as you can get it back up in the air good and start retracting the flaps comfortably. -
Jeff Marken Jun 07, 05
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Just bought a Kitfox here in the UK. Never flown a taildragger before and my I am finding the take off run and landing really difficult. Only done about 14hrs so far. Cant seem to keep straight when on full throttle, heading towards the weeds which is really scary. Then try to over correct and before long I'm all over the place and desperatly trying to get her up in the air before anything nasty happens.
Also on landing, whether its ground rush or what but cant just get it right. I can flare but I'm either too high or too fast. I am trying to fly her along the runway to get a 3 point landing but its really hard for me.
My coach is telling me to put the stick towards the wind during taxing but I note your article is saying keep the stick right back. what should I be doing then?
I hope its because I'm low hours and will get the hang of it.
any advice would be most welcome.
-
Malcolm Sayers Jun 26, 04
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I posted some Kitfox info as well as Flying videos here www.cfisher.com There is a link to You Tube as well that will give you more videos and faster to download as they are compressed.
Kitfoxes are Tame Taildraggers - the trigear pilots just have lazy feet . snicker .. -
D Fisher Feb 27, 07
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The cowling is tapered, so you must use a ref point down the runway to keep straight, you can also use the second or third cowling bump on the left side of the cowling to keep the fox straight! also you only need to put small corrections for rudder and stick inputs and she will roll straight. I find wheel landings work best in the fox! -
Ray Gignac Jan 12, 07
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Malcolm,
You are probably working too hard on the problem. As you gain a bit of experience and learn to relax a bit it may seem to emerge for you. One key thing that often gets forgotten when experienced people coach new pilots is the discussion on where to look, where to put your eyes. If you can find a reasonable focus point down at the end of the takeoff or landing area, far enough away that it will remain still during the whole process and give you a fixed reference with which to judge the emergence of any unwanted yaw, it can be very helpful.
You can pretty well assume that the aircraft will yaw to the left as you add power and raise the tail. The more quickly you preform these actions the more exciting things will be. Easy does it. Keep your heels off the floor so you are nimble on the pedals. It's only an airplane after all.
Hang in there. It will come.
Alex -
Alex Burton Jun 27, 04
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Thank you Alex for your very inspiring words and I will try your advice. The Kitfox is a twitchy little thing and I know its not going to be easy. Done some take off and landings today.Take off seemed to be ok but a bit of wing drop which woke up my coach a bit and then landings, I seem to be flaring too soon and flying along the runway too high and yes guess what happens Yep your right very scary sometimes and I'm sure it doesnt do the tail spring much good either. Trouble is the UK weather is not so good. Lots of high cross winds. Now there is another story all the best.
Malcolm -
Malcolm Sayers Jun 28, 04
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Thanks Jeff, I will practice three-point and wheel landings with and without flaps (crosswinds) in my Citabria. -
Roger Brown Jun 30, 05
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I prefer wheel landings in all situations, except extreamly short/ soft field landings. I feel that wheel landings provide much more control, and can be made much softer. How ever they do come at a cost of a slightly higher landing speed and more runway. But in most single engine tail draggers even 2000 feet is plenty. Just my two cents. -
Michael Hagler May 27, 04
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Congrats on getting your site back up and running Jeff. I prefer full stall in PA-18 J-3 11CC etc. But depends on where I'm landing. On Narrow roads I preferr a wheel landing in anything. In bigger stuff, I prefer a tail low wheel landing. -
Brian Schwend Oct 14, 03
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Folks, I'm kicking off our taildragger forums section with the always hot topic among taildragger pilots: Do you prefer the wheel or three-point/stall landing, or feel one is absolutely better than the other? Our position is that both are perfectly acceptable for most airplanes we all fly when properly executed for the conditions at hand. Whichever one any given pilot prefers or is most comfortable with for any or all given situations is probably best for that pilot, but it may not be best for another pilot. I have a Cessna 180 and actually prefer the wheel landing with it. I would have never believed it because I preferred the stall landing in taildraggers I flew prior, including the J-3 Cub, Cessna 170, 7AC Champ, and Cessna 195. Each airplane is different. No absolute statements one way or the other can be made across the board. Run away from people that make those kinds of statements! -
Jeff Marken Sep 27, 03
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Everyone on this site seems to 3 point when landing site is critical. So why not every time. Less energy = easier to control. -
Wade Saxton Jan 04, 05
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I'm just about to solo a single seat Howland P-3 Pegasus and have become a student of everything in writing on landing a taildragger. One subject that I would like to discuss is the use of brakes for deceleration and control and inherent no-no's involved. My plane has heel brakes. My intentions at this point are to conduct a wheel landing at 45 kts (stall 28 kts), idle, and apply the brakes after I feel good about the directional control. Second question... what if things go badly? How do you feel about a jolt of full throttle to go with full rudder? John from Texas -
John King Jun 11, 05
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I've only flown three types of taildraggers, a Citabria, a Decathlon, and the converted TriPacer that I now own. I found that the Citabria and Decathlon didn't seem to care whether I did three point or wheel landings, but the plane I now fly definitely prefers three point landings. I think the problem is the wing, or lack thereof. If I do a normal approach at 70 - 80 mph with a minimal power setting, by the time I have arrested the descent for landing, I'm almost in a three point configuration. As far as crosswind landings, I've three pointed my plane in direct crosswinds up to about 15 knots with no problems. -
White Ray May 31, 04
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I do both wheel and three-point landings, depending on the need or whim. If I am landing on a particularly short strip, then obviously a 3-point contact will be the slowest, and can therefore stop quicker. Generally, if no bad crosswind exists, I perfer wheel landings on hard surface, this is a little more forgiving than 3-point, and provides a more gentle transition.
In any significant crosswind, I always land 3-point, and brake hard. Once slowed to a crawl, even in a crosswind, its usually pretty controllable. -
Mike Kelly Nov 09, 03
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I would tend to agree for most airplanes, but you can definitely get a Cessna 180 in and stopped shorter with a wheel landing than a 3-pointer. Unlike many airplanes, you can brake a 180 hard with the tail up and they don't nose over and braking action is much more effective with the tail up as more weight is on the mains and not being carried by the wings/tailwheel. -
Jeff Marken Jun 01, 04
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I agree with you, Jeff. In most conventional gear aircraft, I just like to do three-point landings regardless of crosswind conditions. I generally use wheel landings and the corresponding higher approach speeds only when anticipating strong gusts or wind shear near touchdown. -
Brian Moore Nov 22, 04
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Malcolm, congrats on your training in the Kitfox. As, Alex mentioned, don't over work it. I have 70 hrs. in a Citabria. As my instructor taught me, the plane needs only slight pressure inputs to achieve the desired result. Another great tip I learned from my airport veterans was to have your coach run you up and down the runway (without taking off) for some time each day. This will allow you to practice all the things you need (acceleration, tail-up, crosswind control, deceleration, tail-down and turn around) to become comfortable with your airplane. Good Luck. Roger -
Roger Brown Sep 30, 04
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Donnie, When you land with your tail-low attitude, do you keep the tail off for some time or do you pull the stick to your belly? Thanks - Roger -
Roger Brown Feb 12, 05
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Roger, I ease the stick back slowly as the airspeed decreases. When I feel the tailwheel touch, I then hold the stick all the way back. I find this works well everytime I land. It seems it is easier on the tailwheel. Let me know how it works for you. -
Donnie Underwood Mar 18, 05
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Donnie, During my practice the other day, I noticed that I am more comfortable touching the tailwheel first (lightly). I have been working on having the tailwheel touch first, or all three wheels touching at the same time. Next time out I will try having the mains touch first. -
Roger Brown Apr 10, 05
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Donnie, What is your technique for 10kt crosswind take-off and landing in your Citabria? Thanks -
Roger Brown Mar 29, 05
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Cessna's with Scott tailwheels shimmy if they have too much grease in them. Most folks pump in the grease until it comes out, which is normal for most things you grease, but a Scott tailwheel should just have a little. If you take it apart, clean it, and just dab a tiny bit of grease on with your finger, or just give it a pump or two, that's all you need, and your shimmy problems will be gone. At least this is the case for the Cessna 170 and 180. -
Jeff Marken Feb 16, 05
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Roger, I too fly a citabria. I find I get my best landings when I land tail-low with the tailwheel a few inches above the ground. The tailwheel has a tendency to shimmy when I do a lot of three-point landings. The Citabria is a great tailwheel aircraft. -
Donnie Underwood Jan 12, 05
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